(no subject)

[beanside]

I have nothing to add to the current wank debate, except:

Misogyny: a hatred of women

Sexism: 1: prejudice or discrimination based on sex; especially discrimination against women
2: behavior, conditions, or attitudes that foster stereotypes of social roles based on sex

Words. Ur doing them wrong.

Comments

[ladykatiewench.livejournal.com]

But I think it's interesting that Dean has very specifically said that it isn't that he thinks a woman can't do the job (to Jo in the one where she gets kidnapped by the ghost...oh goodness, I lose a fandom, I can't remember the name of the episode!)

And really, the only men he trusts are for specific reasons. He grew up (as far as we can tell) with Bobby around. He is dealing with daddy issues with Gordon (but the moment Gordon shows how messed up he is, Dean immediately recognizes him as an adversary). And then the only reason why he trusts the other hunter for info about Bela is that Bobby sent him to the guy. Even then, it takes a bit for him to really get into the guy.

And with Tamara from Magnificent Seven, he doesn't trust her or her husband and then he sees that he was right not to! They go in half-cocked and the guy gets himself killed.

I'm not saying that Dean isn't sexist at times, I just think people should be careful when they point out when he's doing it. Cause it seems to me that it's more a general mistrust of others, than a specific mistrust of women.

Oh goodness! Am I gonna end up getting myself involved in this?! Sigh.

[beanside.livejournal.com]

Hopefully not. I've never been on fandom wank...though I did put myself on I_wank once. *Grin*

[ladykatiewench.livejournal.com]

Yeah. I hope that just that little bit got it out of my system. Because I really hate it when people misuse accusations of misogyny (like you seem to). And I am all about being pro-feminist, but there are times that making accusations without understanding any of the other context of things only hurts the situation.

[eponin10.livejournal.com]

*nods* Yes, thank you. You all are saying this much more eloquently than I would have managed.

[realpestilence.livejournal.com]

And it's not like a mistrust of women would mean he was sexist or mysogynistic, either.

I'm neither and *I* wouldn't want Jo *as she was at that time* to be the one having to save my ass. She was inexperienced and scrawny, and there *are* times when maturity and physicality *do* matter. It doesn't mean you're inferior, or that Dean (or I) think you are, you're just not trained enough or brawny enough, period. Give her a good mentor (male or female!) for a few years and let her build up some arm/back/thigh muscles and we'll see.

How is acknowledging the realities of the situation either sexist or mysogynistic?

I keep pointing out that it's only either if we see Dean (or any of the guys) treating men *better*. Does he/do they automatically treat men better, *because* they're male; or do they treat all bad guys like enemies, with appropriately abusive language meant to get a rise out of them, regardless of gender?

If a woman was trying to hurt or kill *me*, I'd sure as hell call her a bitch and that doesn't mean any -ism at all.

[ladykatiewench.livejournal.com]

Exactly! Dean seems to be an equal opportunity hater! Other than a short period of time where he was friends with Gordon, every other person who he trusts has to prove themselves worthy of that trust. And even then, he'll still have problems from time to time.

It isn't until Ash shows that he actually knows what he's doing that Dean trusts him with anything (or treats him with anything other than thinly veiled mockery). But take Ellen for instance...at first he is rude and untrusting. But we are also dealing with the Dean who then goes and beats the hell outta the impala over the death of his father. But when it comes down to it, at the end of that season, he is both figuratively and literally standing next to her in the graveyard. When she first shows up, he and Bobby hug her very close. They were both obviously concerned over the possibility of her death and very relieved that she wasn't dead.

It's wrong to judge his actions towards an individual without taking anything other than gender into account. Other than the single mistake with Gordon (and he had corrected that mistake by the end of the episode), he treats all "newcomers" the same way, that is, people he didn't know pre-series. And really, the only *real* exceptions to this are women who he thinks would be good for Sam. He opens up further to Madison than to many others, trusting her enough to let Sam help her to stay alive.

And I think you are right with the language. In fact, I think it says more about the culture WE live in that the only bad words that can slip onto TV are variations of the word "bitch." We've seen with the bleeping out in Ghostfacers that Dean would be just fine using stronger words if the show could get away with it. But nope. It's either calling a woman a "bitch" or calling a guy a "son of a bitch." And I think that it is interesting that the writers kinda pointed out that problem. Gordon hits Dean when he calls him a son of a bitch, because Dean is insulting Gordon's mother. And then, in Ghostfacers, non-"bitch" curses were used a lot more than "bitch" curses/insults. They can't have the characters break the fourth wall and tell us exactly why they use the language, but they've tried to show us.