(no subject)

[beanside]

I have nothing to add to the current wank debate, except:

Misogyny: a hatred of women

Sexism: 1: prejudice or discrimination based on sex; especially discrimination against women
2: behavior, conditions, or attitudes that foster stereotypes of social roles based on sex

Words. Ur doing them wrong.

Comments

[nickgregfan.livejournal.com]

ok you are like the 3rd person to mention wank...how do i msis all of it??? what did i miss???

[beanside.livejournal.com]

Check out fandom_wank on Journal fen for the latest.

http://www.journalfen.net/community/fandom_wank/1156737.html

[ladykatiewench.livejournal.com]

Thanks for sharing the link!! I've been so confused hearing that there is wank and having no clue what's going on!!

[nickgregfan.livejournal.com]

Gosh i'm nosy.

[apetslife.livejournal.com]

How are they being used wrong? (genuinely curious, not snarky here). I've mostly seen people talking about Dean/the creators of the show creating a culture of misogyny (hatred of women), and I'm wondering how else that should be said, to be more correct?

[morgandawn.livejournal.com]

hatred of women (to me) means across the board - they would talk dismissively of all women and undervalue women in general- this would include their mother and jess. sexist would come closer to what we're seeing. and tactless, juvenile, underwritten, stereotypical negative attitudes towards blue class men. We could toss ageism and racism in here too if we really wanted to analyze the show. the one thing we have not seen is anti-semitic.

so to use HR speak: they've created a hostile work environment for women.

[beanside.livejournal.com]

From the descriptions I've seen of peoples problems with the show, it seems to me that they're objecting to the culture of sexism. I don't think the writers are misogynistic. Dean's hatred seems to be evil things, not women. Evil women, sure!

But when he's dealt with other women, like Tamara from the Magnificent Seven, or Ellen he's been sexist at times, but not misogynistic, in my opinion.

[apetslife.livejournal.com]

Gotcha! Thank you for clarifying. I've seen them being used interchangeably (which obviously isn't correct, but within context is explainable), but I have seen people talking about misogyny (claiming that Dean really does hate women, or that the show's creators do), as well as talking about sexism, as you specified here. So I am grateful for your clarification.

[beanside.livejournal.com]

My pleasure. *grin* How's the boy doing, btw? Enjoying his newfound ability to see what he's running around in?

[ladykatiewench.livejournal.com]

But I think it's interesting that Dean has very specifically said that it isn't that he thinks a woman can't do the job (to Jo in the one where she gets kidnapped by the ghost...oh goodness, I lose a fandom, I can't remember the name of the episode!)

And really, the only men he trusts are for specific reasons. He grew up (as far as we can tell) with Bobby around. He is dealing with daddy issues with Gordon (but the moment Gordon shows how messed up he is, Dean immediately recognizes him as an adversary). And then the only reason why he trusts the other hunter for info about Bela is that Bobby sent him to the guy. Even then, it takes a bit for him to really get into the guy.

And with Tamara from Magnificent Seven, he doesn't trust her or her husband and then he sees that he was right not to! They go in half-cocked and the guy gets himself killed.

I'm not saying that Dean isn't sexist at times, I just think people should be careful when they point out when he's doing it. Cause it seems to me that it's more a general mistrust of others, than a specific mistrust of women.

Oh goodness! Am I gonna end up getting myself involved in this?! Sigh.

[beanside.livejournal.com]

Hopefully not. I've never been on fandom wank...though I did put myself on I_wank once. *Grin*

[ladykatiewench.livejournal.com]

Yeah. I hope that just that little bit got it out of my system. Because I really hate it when people misuse accusations of misogyny (like you seem to). And I am all about being pro-feminist, but there are times that making accusations without understanding any of the other context of things only hurts the situation.

[eponin10.livejournal.com]

*nods* Yes, thank you. You all are saying this much more eloquently than I would have managed.

[realpestilence.livejournal.com]

And it's not like a mistrust of women would mean he was sexist or mysogynistic, either.

I'm neither and *I* wouldn't want Jo *as she was at that time* to be the one having to save my ass. She was inexperienced and scrawny, and there *are* times when maturity and physicality *do* matter. It doesn't mean you're inferior, or that Dean (or I) think you are, you're just not trained enough or brawny enough, period. Give her a good mentor (male or female!) for a few years and let her build up some arm/back/thigh muscles and we'll see.

How is acknowledging the realities of the situation either sexist or mysogynistic?

I keep pointing out that it's only either if we see Dean (or any of the guys) treating men *better*. Does he/do they automatically treat men better, *because* they're male; or do they treat all bad guys like enemies, with appropriately abusive language meant to get a rise out of them, regardless of gender?

If a woman was trying to hurt or kill *me*, I'd sure as hell call her a bitch and that doesn't mean any -ism at all.

[ladykatiewench.livejournal.com]

Exactly! Dean seems to be an equal opportunity hater! Other than a short period of time where he was friends with Gordon, every other person who he trusts has to prove themselves worthy of that trust. And even then, he'll still have problems from time to time.

It isn't until Ash shows that he actually knows what he's doing that Dean trusts him with anything (or treats him with anything other than thinly veiled mockery). But take Ellen for instance...at first he is rude and untrusting. But we are also dealing with the Dean who then goes and beats the hell outta the impala over the death of his father. But when it comes down to it, at the end of that season, he is both figuratively and literally standing next to her in the graveyard. When she first shows up, he and Bobby hug her very close. They were both obviously concerned over the possibility of her death and very relieved that she wasn't dead.

It's wrong to judge his actions towards an individual without taking anything other than gender into account. Other than the single mistake with Gordon (and he had corrected that mistake by the end of the episode), he treats all "newcomers" the same way, that is, people he didn't know pre-series. And really, the only *real* exceptions to this are women who he thinks would be good for Sam. He opens up further to Madison than to many others, trusting her enough to let Sam help her to stay alive.

And I think you are right with the language. In fact, I think it says more about the culture WE live in that the only bad words that can slip onto TV are variations of the word "bitch." We've seen with the bleeping out in Ghostfacers that Dean would be just fine using stronger words if the show could get away with it. But nope. It's either calling a woman a "bitch" or calling a guy a "son of a bitch." And I think that it is interesting that the writers kinda pointed out that problem. Gordon hits Dean when he calls him a son of a bitch, because Dean is insulting Gordon's mother. And then, in Ghostfacers, non-"bitch" curses were used a lot more than "bitch" curses/insults. They can't have the characters break the fourth wall and tell us exactly why they use the language, but they've tried to show us.

[realpestilence.livejournal.com]

He's a pretty typical working-class guy who hasn't been exposed much to the culture of politcally correct touchy-feeliness that Sam, for example, has had some experience with out on a California college campus.

In my own experience, he's actually *less* sexist than most of the people I know, and that includes the women. Maybe I know the wrong people. *shrugs*

I've been wondering if we've seen any stats on the insults towards/killing or mistreatment of *men* on the show, since these kinds of discussions always seem to be about the women, like only women are the victims of whatever -ism that's under the microscope. It wouldn't be sexist to insult *evil* women if you're insulting all the *evil* people/things, in general. Or just impatiently being equally pissy or bubble-busting towards all the pop culture holy icons and pretentiousness you encounter.

Damn, I keep saying I don't want to get drawn into this "debate" (ha), but it is difficult to resist.

[ixchel55.livejournal.com]

Thank you.

[beanside.livejournal.com]

*grin* My pleasure.

[poisontaster]

My love for you grows by the minute. :D

[beanside.livejournal.com]

Hee! *MWAH*

[mona1347.livejournal.com]

*cries* H.H. Holmes as portrayed in No Exit was misogynist. Earth-culture is sexist.

You know what? I'll say it here since I don't have the energy to say in my own LJ...

THIS IS THE VIOLENCE INHERENT IN THE SYSTEM, PEOPLE. THE CULTURE IS SEXIST AND THEREFORE SO IS OUR SHOW/IT'S CHARACTERS AND THEREFORE, SO ARE WE.

WELCOME TO OUR PLANET, WE'RE SEXIST AND RACIST AND A MUCH OF OTHER ISTs HERE!

*tucks away soapbox* Thank you, T, for this platform upon which I capslock.

[beanside.livejournal.com]

*snort* My pleasure, love.

[strippedpink.livejournal.com]

You're pretty. ♥

[beanside.livejournal.com]

*dance* Thank you! I think you are too!

[wendy.livejournal.com]

THANK YOU. I keep trying to explain chauvinism vs. misogyny but I don't think it's getting through either...

[frostian.livejournal.com]

You're not the only one. I've seen both sides of the argument use these words interchangeably and every time I see that mistake I feel like throttling a kitten.

Kidding about kitten. Not about the throttling though.

[eponin10.livejournal.com]

You rock. :)

[http://users.livejournal.com/amy_star_/]

Thank God for someone who gets it. I almost blew a gasket yesterday. As ladykatiewench pointed out, Dean doesn't have a specific hate of women; rather, like any good con artist he looks at people and if he finds no use for them they don't register. And since he's an established womanizer, he has more use for women (in one regard - canonically, not in fic *g* - anyway) than men as a general rule. If you're not family, then you're a rube, you know? And sure, he's sexist, but that doesn't mean he actually hates women.

*sigh*

[lady-krystal-79.livejournal.com]

If I may dare to venture an opinion... I realise I may be a lone voice in this, but I find Dean neither a misogynist nor sexist. I'm not sure I'd even classify him as a womanizer. He certainly enjoys women (at every opportunity), but I don't believe he looks down on them, or thinks they're only good for one thing. In today's equal opportunity society, I think Dean finds like-minded women and they have a mutually good time.

And I really can't believe I have put this much thought into a televison character! :-)

[tobemeagain.livejournal.com]

*laughs*
I'm with you on -hmmmn- yup that would be on everything you just said.

[lady-krystal-79.livejournal.com]

We are way too invested in Supernatural, methinks. *nods*

Poor beanside! We've hijacked your journal! Sorry!

Thank You

[tobemeagain.livejournal.com]

I was confused about the uproar (which I'm pretty much avoiding) and the word usage. So I dedcided to talk to my mother. I tried explaining some of the wank to her. She absolutely cannot believe some of the "ridiculous accusations" about "fictional characters" (yes she watches the show too). Now as an educated woman born in the 50's she has way more first hand experience in what it is like to be faced with sexism and the "mistreatment of women".
*apologies if this is not completely clear, my head's a tad foggy*